Rolf Versluis is Co-Founder and Executive Advisor of the privacy oriented cryptocurrency Horizen. He also operates private cryptocurrency mining facilities with thousands of operational systems, and has a blog and YouTube channel on how to mine profitably. As a board member of Zen Blockchain Foundation, Rolf is at the forefront of cryptocurrency development and operations. A founder of North Georgia Crypto Mining, he has the opportunity to work in the mining space where the business revenue and investor returns are generated in cryptocurrency.

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Transcription

And we’re live. All right. Welcome everybody to, I think this is the 30th episode of the crypto mining tools podcast. I’m your host, Scott offered. And over here is Ethan.

Aye, aye everybody. And down here we have Rolf are our honored guests today. And Rolf, I just have to say thank you so much because you were an inspiration to me when I got into mining. I watched your YouTube videos and I learned so much and that’s how I started planning out my my mining operation. So I’m so glad to have you on the show today.

Thanks Ethan. Appreciate it. Yeah, I look back at some of those older videos and I was taking those videos as I was going through a learning process and I’ve learned so much in the four or five years since I first started those. But I think a lot of people can kind of sympathize with that learning process and there wasn’t a lot of information out then, so I tried to put some quality info out and I’m really glad that you got some use out of it.

Oh yeah. I mean everything from how to set up the network to putting redundancy in the network to PDU news and, and, you know, getting the power distributed. I mean, I had no clue. I had no idea how much power these things used. And you taught me so much. It’s just amazing. And even just dealing with the heat, I had no idea that there was that much heat that they generated to just, yeah. Phenomenal information. So I’m really glad to have you.

So that was back in 2017 you said Ethan?

That was 2017 when I watched the vias. I’m not sure when they were made exactly. I think maybe they were made 2016. Yeah.

Yeah. I started doing them in 2016 cause I bought my first ASIC miner back in 2015 and then plugged in, I’m like, Hey, I’m netting $50 a month. How can I make this my full time job? And I did some math calculations and I’m like, well, I need 200 of these. Okay. How can I do 200? And you know, I used to run nuclear power plants on submarines when I was an officer of the Navy. So a little bit of power and electrical experience and you ran the numbers and it just makes sense, right? Yeah, it did.

That’s awesome. Yeah. So, well, we’re glad to have you on this episode today. You know, our audience is all about mining and crypto and blockchain, so it’s perfect. We, we’re, we’re glad to talk to you. I know you’re involved in a lot of different projects. We’d really just love to have a chat with you and learn more about you and, and you know, maybe give some education to the to our audience.

Cool. Thanks Scott. Yeah, unfortunately.

So why, why don’t you tell us how you kinda got into this and you know, where it went from there.

Sure. so yeah, I started out as an officer of the Navy and then I get out and learn technical sales and I worked for Cisco systems for a few years back in 2000 and then I got out and started an it business where we put network upgrades and IP phone systems. So the Cisco phones, you see everywhere now. Yeah, there wasn’t a lot of those back around in 2002 when we started. So we help put those in a lot of places. But then, you know, in the early 2010s, 20, 12, things started slowing down. Everybody had all these things. Me and my partner had built up a company of 60 people. We were doing a lot of sales and we’re like, wow, you know, we kind of got that technology wave and it’s done with, we should sell our company so we’re able to sell our company.

But in 2015 we did that. And then my wife and I, we have four children. They’re teenagers now and they’re really expensive. So it was cool to sell the company, but I’m like, Hmm, I’m going to need to find something to do. So I like rapidly growing technologies and so I tried three D printing and flying drones. And like I said earlier, I bought that minor. I’m like, Hey, I can make money mining Bitcoin stuff. It makes sense. So that’s kind of how I get into it. Yeah. Well that’s awesome. And then right now what, what are the couple of the projects that you’re involved in? Yeah, so with, with mining, I’ve got three little companies, you know, little companies, we don’t really have any employees, but so my block operations one, I do podcasts and video things and put out a blog posts and stuff like that just for, for miners and for information.

And then maybe a little bit of affiliate sales here and there. There’s a store there that it’s hard to find things that miners might find in handy. And then I’ve got a small mining organization. You might see that in some of my videos. Me and one of my partners rented a plates with a roll up garage, put at the height of it, 600 miners in there. We’re moving out of that next week because it to time the least to coincide with the having cause we’re like, we’re not sure what’s going to happen. Either we’re going to be wildly profitable or we’re going to want to take our stuff and put it into, you know, something else. So we didn’t know what something else was that right now that we can re put all that electrical gear and miners into containers and find low price places here in the U S that has maybe three and a half or 4 cents per kilowatt hour and put the containers there.

So that’s what we’ll do. And then about a year and a half ago, started another company with two other partners and we bought some land in Dahlonega, Georgia. We’re in North Georgia and built out a it can handle about a thousand of the ant minor [inaudible] and then it can mix there. And since we all have experience in business and operations, we’re doing consulting. Cause last time in 2017 when everybody got insult interested in mining there were so many people that are calling to say, Hey, help me set up a, a mining facility and time was almost one of those people. So here we have a way to way to do that. And so we’re, we’ve got a few clients that we’re helping and it’s actually a lot of fun to be able to give back. And of course we charge money for this. But that, that’s okay. And there’s, there’s a lot of people that are interested in it now, I saw recently on Twitter that there’s a lot of people that are searching on the term Bitcoin having, which means if the price goes up, there’s going to be more interested in money because people think that mining is a, is a, is a sure fire away to just get a bunch of Bitcoin cheap. And it is, but there’s some caveats to that. There’s some risks there. It takes some work.

Yeah, you definitely, you have to know what you’re doing. You have to know quite a bit about power. You have to know quite a bit about market opportunity. A lot of people, and it’s so strange, you know, when the price of Bitcoin goes down and the cost of the miners get cheap, Scott and I see the market kind of just die out and me and Scott are thinking this is the time everybody should buy their minors. But time and time again when the market goes back up and the price of the miners go back up and the, and the shipping windows get delayed further and further out, that’s when everybody wants to throw money at it. So yeah. Tell us what your thoughts are.

Yeah, no. And, and so it took me a while. It took me a few years of experience and cogitation, but I kind of put it into a blog post and a podcast post called the Bitcoin price cycle and what miners should do at every part of the Bitcoin price cycle when you should be buying equipment, when you should be investing in infrastructure, when you should be mining and selling me right away. And when you should be mining and holding on as long as you can and for the price to go up. And it seems obvious when you read that, but when you start it and don’t know anything about it, it’s not obvious. Right? Yeah. And a lot of mining organizations and people are pretty private about what they do for good reason because you don’t want people know to think that, Oh, he’s mine and he’s got a bunch of Bitcoin, let’s, let’s kidnap them, or he’s not actually following the rules, let’s arrest them or, or, or things like that.

So I, I’m happy to say that I’ve been mining for a number of years and I’m still in business. And that’s but you know, it hasn’t been an absolute moneymaker for sure. Yep. Or we have a comment here from Sakib actually scape as one of our partners, he says, knowledge of market cycles are extremely important and can only occur with time and experience in crypto. Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. And then when people ask why I do, I’d like to explain it the simple way. I’m like, it’s like the Bitcoin price starts at $3 and then it goes up to a 200 and then or 20 and then down to three and up to 200 down to 30 up to 2000 down to 300. Anyway, the cycle is it went down to 3000 and it should go up to about 200,000 somewhere between 50 and two.

And the only way that you want to get into mining is if you believe in the Bitcoin price cycle. If you don’t believe in the Bitcoin price cycle, you probably don’t want to get into that is the one thing. The other thing is you’re investing money to buy Bitcoin at a discount, but different elements of that have different timeframes. So the infrastructure, the power network cooling, that has about an eight to 10 year payback time. So you need to plan on being mining eight to 10 years and then the equipment, you should plan on it for about three years. That it’s good. I’m going to [inaudible] we’re going on four years now, which is pretty exciting. And if we hit another price cycle, they might be good for a fifth year. And with the seven nanometer technology stuff coming up, I’m thinking that’s going to be good for four to five years. Hope, hopefully. Hopefully. But you just don’t know. And there’s so many uncertainties and there’s so much volatility and then you make most of your money when the price is rising fast. I remember for a few months there, I have awesome minded. It runs on my monitors. My minors were running about 500 minors at the time. It was, it was saying on a daily basis we’re netting $300,000 a month. Wow. But that was during December of 2017 and really because we didn’t sell our [inaudible].

Yeah. Just like that comment. It’s important for the price cycle to know when to sell, to learn, when to take profit is what I say. Yeah. Yup. And there’s, there’s all sorts of other little mistakes. I bought a whole bunch of ant miner [inaudible], which came out to nine dash and that was, that’s what I bought. I’d guilty. The first miner I ever bought was a bakery. I bought it for $1,200, and I looked back on that Bitcoin that I spent on that I’m like, you know, I should have paid off my house. Yeah. That’s the dream, isn’t it? One of the dream.

Yeah. Yeah. so yeah. You know, I think according to your bio, you know, you were involved in Zen cash and, and also horizon. Yeah. yeah, we, I mean, we’d love to know a little bit more about that and, and you know, why, why you feel those projects are unique and valuable. So yeah. Why don’t you tell us kind of what your involvement is and tell us about the,

You bet for the involvement that came out of mining too. So mining’s a first path into crypto for a lot of people, especially on the GPU mining side where you can take graphics cards and optimize them to mine different things. And they’re still good GPU mountable projects out there. In fact, I think Raven just switched to a version of GPU mining and there’s other ones that are out there. And so I was doing GP, GPU mining and I’m big into privacy and self determination and all that type of thing. And so I started mining Z cash because I was really excited about that. And that was mining dash at the time. And I was mining Bitcoin and light coin cause I think it’s important to mind a bunch of different cryptocurrencies because they have different cycles and different price cycles. And if you get to know the projects well just like you evaluate a business and you know, it has a good team, they have a good market, they have a good record of accomplishing things and they have a good idea that it might be good to invest in.

And by invest I mean either minded or spend money on it or spent time learning about it or buy some of it. And so Z cash was a great project. And then C classic fork right after it which was the same thing as C cash, but it was taking all the paying the developers out. And so I was mining both because they’re both profitable. You don’t, you don’t have to marry a project that you’re mining you, you just have to make profit off it. But in that method you get to learn about all these different things and why they exist. And so as I was building up a bunch of Z classic, I’m like, Hey, is anybody doing anything to get on a hardware wallet? And people in the group are like, Nope, nobody does anything. I’m like, okay. So I started talking with a few other folks and I’m like, Hey, is there a way we can fund a hardware wallet?

And a couple of guys, a rocket and fin punk were on there and they’re like, well, we got some ideas about this. And so then I started going back and forth and trading messages and information. And at the end of the day, it’s in punk rock. Robin Leoni decided that the only way that we were going to be able to get what we wanted was to take CE classic and fork it. We add some of the developer funds back in, but then dash I think has some really good new things with the master nodes that they had then and then the voting for that the master nodes do. So we wanted to make sure we had a project that was privacy based, that had ongoing funding for software developers and one of the developers on, on Z classic. He had the idea that we wouldn’t do a new coin with the new Genesis block cause that’s what everybody did back then.

We would actually do a chain split and that was pretty new back then. So a hard before cash, right? A soft fork instead of a hard fork or hard fork into two different projects. Right. And we recently saw that with steam and hive, but you gotta line up a lot of stuff to do. You’re gonna have an exchange that’s willing to do that with you. And then Beatrix worked with us and said we’re going to do that. So at the end of the day we launched Zen cash as a, as a chain split a fork. And it was great. We had an initial team and we had an exchange listing and we had an ongoing stream of funding and we had an idea and that was pretty much all we had. Luckily Rob [inaudible], he knows a lot of people in the industry and was able to get some engineers to help us and then we’re able to bootstrap an entire organization.

So we did a, yeah, modification is then cache and changed its name into horizon with a Zen at the end. So it’s still the same ticker symbol. And it’s an international organization. Now we’ve got 40, 50 people and two years ago we said, privacy is good, but we need to have something unique that’s going to let us scale. And so we pay nodes, we have private transactions we have lots of engagement through our through our faucet, which is at gets end up cash. And so we decided what we’re going to do though was a real ZK snark based side chain. So a true side chain that didn’t require a trusted set of nodes to operate. And there’s nothing out there that like they’re right right now. So at the end of may, we’re going to launch our side chain beta on test net that has a true zero knowledge proof.

Same thing that the cash is, they’re not as proof way to send funds to the side chain back. It’s going to be Java programmable, this based on oral Oroboro, which is like what Cardona does and it’s going to let us make all sorts of different side chains to do all sorts of different things. Pretty exciting project. So I’m happy to be involved in that. And it’s still Alignable there is in fact there’s Equihash minors. And Bitmain just I think yesterday announced a new one. The [inaudible] Oh wow. So when your, when your project is, you know, ASIC mineable which is, you know horizon and Z cash are both the standard Equihash that’s, that’s the, that’s the most efficient mining you can get. You can’t, you’re not open to being hacked by a nice hash GPU mining type thing.

Yeah. Now, how, how would your project compare to something like Monero? I know manera also has a, it’s a privacy coin and puts privacy at first and foremost in its transactions. How does, how does your project compare to Monero?

Yeah. Minero’s projects has been around for quite a while. Lot of falling really up there and ranked on the coin market cap and they have a number of different ways to do privacy and they continue to do ongoing implementation. So I think Monero is pretty much every transaction on there is private. So that causes some issues with some countries and exchanges. So with the way cash and horizons designed is there’s both a transparent address, which is like a Bitcoin address and private addresses. And you can do both. And one of the things that we’re looking to do with horizon is instead of having both private and transparent addresses on the main chain, one of the options is for us to move our private transactions to a side chain. So we only have transactions on the main chain because that’s one of the good things about transparent transactions is everybody sees what the ledger is like.

Everybody knows how much there actually is. You knew that there’s only gonna be 21 million Bitcoin and you can audit it there. The question with horizon is, well, we know how many transparent coins there are, but how many ones are there that are, that we can’t see. That’s not narrow. That’s the whole thing is you can’t see what it is. And then they have some mixing that goes in and so they need a lot of people using it for it to be truly private. But you know, Minero’s chugged on that. They have a great community, they have a bunch of support around. So I think that’s a good product.

So your project is more versatile because it allows you the option to do one or the other instead of just one or the other.

Yeah, I mean, and that’s, that’s, that was Z caches, you know, cool. New and different thing that they did. So to me, the top of the stack from mining are projects that have the most hash rate for a new and unique and different things. That’s like Bitcoin. You know, light coin has script dash has X 11 a Z cash on, on Equihash their top projects and because they come out with new and different things. So yeah, Zen cast started out as a sign out copy as the cash, but we’re branching off into, into different things and like you said, even the innovation that Zeke has came out with was to have transparent and shielded transactions on the same blockchain. Improvable that, that you know, if you are sent shielded money or private money that it’s actually on the blockchain and recorded.

Right. That’s, that’s pretty fantastic. Speaking of the blockchain, I’d like to give a shout out to today’s sponsor BraiinsOS if you’re mining folks and you’re using the factory from where you are not getting the most from your machines, these machines are capable of doing a lot more from running more efficiently to getting more hash from the power that you’re using and BraiinsOS has two versions that can help you do that. One is the free open source version that anybody’s free to download. You can install it in your miners. Give it a test drive. And if you’re more of an enterprise you know, scenario, you can use their enterprise brains, OSTP, which has a lot more fine grain features into it and a lot more control features allow you to manage a much larger farm. Beyond that. If you’re using the enterprise version and you go to Slushpool, which brings the list is part of Slushpool they will give you a discount. They will give you 50% lower fees if you, yeah, if you mind using their enterprise edition, Scott’s going to tell you guys more.

Yeah. So that’s, that’s pretty cool. You know, you can save a little bit on your mining fees by using their enterprise version and like you’ve said the enterprise version, it does have the dev fee, but hopefully that can balance itself out. And, and with that enterprise version, you get even more fine grained tuning and actually re Ralph. You, you were saying you actually might’ve given BraiinsOS a try before. But, but maybe,

Oh yeah, I switched all my [inaudible] over to BraiinsOS awhile back because they were the first one to allow individual hash board tuning and also to be using async boost on the ant miner [inaudible] number here in Georgia. It gets pretty hot, so it was great to be able to tune those down. Sometimes the boards need to be running at different frequencies for optimization. So that was great. I switched away from brain’s a few months back just because some of the other alternative software out there had auto tuning, but to me, brains has always been the leader. They make open source software, which I feel a lot more secure about mine on slush pool with that, I didn’t know about the discount if you’re mining with rain. So, yeah. And I’m happy to do Linux and command line and other types of things, which in some cases you need to do that to get it onto the machine, especially if you’ve got it on a, on a different version already, or maybe you need to stick a little hash card. And I see that they’re doing alternative OSS for S 17 and those different versions and hopefully the S 19. So yeah, I’m going to be given that a try again, I’m so glad that the BraiinsOS has, has auto tuning, which is tuned to specific frequency of each chip so it can run it at max power without the overall machine. It’s great.

Yeah. And like you said there, there was a, there’s other firmware out there that, that has those features. But definitely one thing I like about BraiinsOS well other than the fact that they sponsor our show and it helped to support us that we can do this kind of content. It’s, you know, that that open source idea. Because you know, I have seen other firmware providers basically say, Hey, you know, we don’t want to work with you anymore. We’re going to give you one week to get all of your miners off of our network. Otherwise we’re going to basically brick your minors, you know, and that’s, that’s kind of dangerous. It’s something that I had never really thought about before. If you’re using somebody’s third party software, is there a potential that that you can maybe get cut off, you know, like

They have the power to shut you down? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. You could usually always go back and like do a, if you have physical access to the machine, do a hard reboot back to factory standard or put an SD card in or something like that. But yeah, you don’t want that. I didn’t know also that there was a brain’s enterprise one. So if you have a few thousand miners and you know, you bring in a few thousand dollars per day, you want to be able to have support in the, in the high end optimization and then being able to add additional things like measuring if a fan broke and what happens then do you want to be alerted? I like to be running equipment that monitors my stuff and sends me an alert when there’s a problem, you know? So those things on my block operations, you can look back and say, Hey, here’s how you can use this open source monitoring tool Zabbix to monitor all your network.

You can even use it to monitor your minors and it can send you an email when there’s a network problem. And it goes back from the it days where I like to be told about problems before the user and what the conversation about brains leads to another thing where there’s so many little things that you can learn to do to optimize your, your mind if can get an extra five, 10, 15% by doing different things here. Well that drops right to the bottom line. Absolutely. Understanding a little bit about trading and technical analysis and when to buy and sell understanding that your banks can cut you off. So you have to have multiple banks understanding how to use hardware, wallets and then knowing, Oh, this is an important one. There is a lot of scam websites out there. Oh yeah. Selling minors. Right. I just ran into a new one the other day. Bitcoin express, you know, we’ve got already send us your

Don’t do it, man. Yeah. And about those scams. Yeah. I mean, w one time I was getting so crazy, I can’t remember what the company was.

It was nuts in 2017 pretty much every other thing you would find on the, on the worldwide web, Google searching was a scam.

It was Oh Zig bit or a bit harp

Was a bit harp. Oh my God.

They were doing these press releases on all the different websites. You know, and so I decided, well, okay, I’m going to

Call them out so fast, Scott.

Yeah. And so I got like drew WASK from Voss coin. He has a YouTube channel. So I said, Hey, you know, you gotta do a video about this. And then I got some other people to do it. And eventually, like within a couple of weeks that harp went from like the number one search result to to way down. And all these YouTube videos started showing up instead. So I, I’d like to think that, you know, hopefully I was able to help people not to get scammed.

Unfortunately I looked at their wallet and I traced the transactions they received about 60 grand worth of people.

Yeah. Probably just from Bitcoin. And you know, I had other addresses like a theory and what

Yeah. But yeah, this industry for a little while, it’s also new and you know, just there’s a, there’s a few basics. Don’t give your private keys away, don’t lose your, your backup. And if someone sends you an email with a link, be really, really, really careful before you click. Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Cause remember that, although I think, I think all a bit, Maine’s customer email address has got hacked awhile back and then sending emails to every main customer and they looked like legitimate emails. That was frustrating.

That’s scary. Scary stuff. But yeah, I mean we’re, we’re only talking about this because you were saying, you know, there there’s so many different ways, little things that you can do to make your operation more efficient or save a little money or make a little bit more money. And that comes down to things like, yeah, you know, when to buy your miners, when to sell them. Installing custom firmware and obviously things like making sure you don’t get scammed because that’s a really easy way to lose all the profit you might’ve had.

Yeah. And then, you know, you want to make sure if you buy a miner for a thousand, $2,000 or whatever, that you’re going to run it optimally. So that means feed it some air. Don’t let the hot air research relate to the cold side. Cause then the thing overheats quickly. And a lot of people say, should I use air conditioning? It’s like, no, I haven’t seen anybody use air conditioning. Just make sure there’s enough cold air coming in, enough hot air going out. So the research isolation doesn’t happen. Right. So taking care of your, your mining equipment as well? Yeah, yeah. That these machines like to run within a temperature range. Like if it gets too cold, if you feed air that’s too cold, they actually start to malfunction and need to be reboot. So it’s kind of always keeping them in that optimal temperature range.

Yeah, they do. Fortunately, if you get them up and running and it’s really cold, you can just allow some of the air to research violate and then it kind of eats them up. Bad part is if you have a power outage and it’s really ice cold and you’re trying to start them up again, that’s a little hard to do. Well, the great thing is with, with brains, they have a preheat option now. I don’t know what, yeah, of course for those cold environments, just run them to heat them up to operating temp and then they’ll kick on. Oh, that’s pretty sweet. Yeah. So, but anyway, yeah. Yeah. We’re coming to the end of our show here. You know, is there anything else that you really just want to leave with our audience and, and let them know about? Well first of all, I appreciate everybody who’s watched my videos, listen to my podcasts and left the comments on there. Hopefully you found a little bit of value. Please bear with me as I documented my learning experience. What I would recommend to you now is sometimes very different than what I would recommend three years from now. So do sure.

And you know, having said that, they’re there. If, if there’s people that want a consulting or advice happy to do that. We’ve got a process, go to our North Georgia crypto mining website and, and you know, reach out and me or my business, one of my business partners, we’ll get back to you. And a lot of people call and they want to start mining and they don’t realize how much of an investment it is and timing. Right? So my first thing I stated is don’t find any minors right away by maybe one and learn how to mine. It’ll take people like a month or two just to learn how to hook up a minor, get it mining, get that cryptocurrency to an exchange, sell it, bring that money back to a bank account and then actually pay their electricity bill that you need to know how to do that.

Yeah, absolutely. And then if you’re not willing to commit for like eight to 10 years, don’t buy infrastructure, actually have it hosted somewhere. There’s a lot of people that, that do good hosting at good prices. And we have a hosting directory. So if you need power or hosting our director, we have an interactive map. You can go and put in different filters and search parameters and find exactly what you’re looking for. One of the worst tailings is to have a pallet of miners sitting there and no place to plug them in. Be careful and then buy from known good resellers in your country that brokers go, brokers you know, do a few small orders with them and before you scale up and if you’re going to order from someone out of the country, either get a really good recommendation to order directly from the manufacturer. Those are like the main things to not step into money and lose money. Yeah. So

Of Ralph Ralph, sorry, not Ralph. Yeah. So on telegram we have your username as at block ops. That’s right. And I don’t, I don’t know if you use telegram much, but and then also on we have Twitter. Here you are @RolfVersluis or how do you say your last name?

The Netherlands, which is where my family is from. You say role for spouse versus house, but here in America people usually say first person. Yeah. And then, and then again

You mentioned those websites and I’ll just, let’s see if I could put them up here quickly. Blockoperations.com and NGAcryptomining.com. That’s right. All right there.

Georgia. In the United States, not in the country. And just for fun, Ralph, you mentioned that you know, the, the ebb and flow of the price of Bitcoin, you says it’ll go down to 3000 and up to 200,000 care to guests when, when it’s gonna hit that Mark. Do you think it’ll happen in the next 24 months? Cause that at the time of this

Recording right now it’s at $9,977.

Yeah, I was going to say the next 18 months is what I’m guessing that’s safe. Okay. Wow. Yeah. Okay. So next 18 months, what? I think it’ll hit definitely over a hundred thousand in the next 18 months. I think with a lot of the futures and other types of interests that that get into it, it might, might not allow the Bitcoin price to get up to $200,000. I think the overall crypto market might actually be a better measure in some cases, the overall market cap of the crypto market. But I can’t give you a prediction for that. But since most people are mining Bitcoin and Bitcoin is a great proxy, I think it’s got a good shot to get to $200,000. Okay. All right.

It’ll be interesting. Maybe, maybe, maybe we can schedule a podcast for 18 months and Jerry,

We’ll have a recap. Yeah. But that’s the other thing with mining. Don’t base everything. I want you to think it’s going to happen. Let the market tell you what’s happening. Let’s say two actions based on that. Yep. Yeah, absolutely.

We are very happy to have had you on this show and we thank you for sharing your knowledge and your wisdom with us. Yeah.

Thank you very much for all of you. You’ve been the life changer for me. Thanks Ethan. Appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity, Scott. Alright. Take care.

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